RE: Stopping automatic (spam) submissions of rings and sites

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [RLopen] Stopping automatic (spam) submissions of rings and
sites
From: Gunnar Hjalmarsson <gunnar@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Tue, November 28, 2006 12:56 pm
To: list@xxxxxxxxxxxx

Hi all!

Pete and I just had a discussion at the Ringlink-developers list, and
since we failed to agree on one thing, we at least agreed on moving the
discussion to Ringlink-open.

I'm not suggesting a vote, but I reserve the right to act up to my
convictions in the end. :) OTOH, I'm always ready to listen to good
arguments.

Below follows Pete's and my conversation. Happy reading!

/ Gunnar

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

[Gunnar]
I have just added a feature to Ringlink, that makes it easy to prevent
spam in the form of automatic submissions of new rings and sites. It's a
simple cookie solution, which isn't as safe as CAPTCHA, but OTOH you are
not bothered with extra typing. I'm using the same feature in my contact
form script, and so far it has proved to be very effective. Automatic
spam messages, that I previously received several times a day, has
ceased completely. :)

Please feel free to study the new feature at Ringlink Demo.

The feature is not compatible with using separate forms for ring and
site submissions. In other words, if you enable the feature, rings and
sites need to be submitted using newring.pl respective newsite.pl, or
else the program won't behave as expected. As regards site submissions,
you enable it on the ring level in "Ring admin".

The restriction just mentioned makes me think of the form examples in
Examples Demoring and at other places... Personally I have never
encouraged the use of separate forms, and now there is an additional
reason to think twice before you use separate forms for submitting rings
and sites.

I'd like especially Pete to think about this. Is it advisable to keep
showing how you put together separate forms, considering this new feature?

Believe it or not, but I thought I'd release a new version soon. ;-) Is
there anything else that ought to be considered before such a release?

-------------------------------------------------------
[Pete]
I have found that ringmasters love to have forms not links on their
webring's homepage, myself included?

Ironically the first time I ever met Gunnar online (pre Ringlink age) he
was responding to a request I had made on how to place a webring.org
form on my webring's home page! ;-)

The last time Gunnar suggested this 'form issue' a few years ago I
updated the Examples Demoring forms with this warning:

Warning for Ringmasters: If you hard code these forms on your home or
join pages, they may not work properly when the system manager upgrades
to the latest version of the Ringlink program. So, when notified of a
system upgrade, it is best to test all your hard coded forms (Ringlink
recommends that you link to these forms within the system, and do not
hard code them on your join or home pages).

However, "How do I place these forms on my ring's home page", still
being the request I get most often when managing a webring system
despite this warning or the examples found within the system template.

We had this discussion previously, and my suggestion was:

Maybe instead of captcha there was a Ringlink feature where the system
admin could set in rlconfig the number of days a ring could remain in
the system without a predetermined number of member sites before being
automatically deleted? The system would then have the following warning
on the ring create page under the submit button "PS: Your webring will
be removed if it has NO member websites within '7' days of being created!"
http://arc.ringlink.org/ringlink-open/msg03384.html

Or maybe a way to manage this in Master Admin?

Prevent automatic (spam) submissions of sites
Requires that newsite.pl is used to add new sites.

Why should this be an option for the Ringmaster, surely no ringmaster
would want spam submissions??

In my experience trying to get ringmasters to change the way they do
things is an impossibility?
WebRing.com being a perfect example...

-------------------------------------------------------
[Gunnar]
Pete wrote:
> Ironically the first time I ever met Gunnar online (pre Ringlink age) he
> was responding to a request I had made on how to place a webring.org
> form on my webring's home page! ;-)

What a mistake! ;-) (To be honest, I also had a separate form at that
time, IIRC.)

> However, "How do I place these forms on my ring's home page", still
> being the request I get most often when managing a webring system
> despite this warning or the examples found within the system template.

Really? The warning you mention is good, nevertheless.

> We had this discussion previously, and my suggestion was:
>
> Maybe instead of captcha there was a Ringlink feature where the system
> admin could set in rlconfig the number of days a ring could remain in
> the system without a predetermined number of member sites before being
> automatically deleted? The system would then have the following warning
> on the ring create page under the submit button "PS: Your webring will
> be removed if it has NO member websites within '7' days of being created!"
> http://arc.ringlink.org/ringlink-open/msg03384.html

That suggestion addresses a different issue, I think. While you seem to
be talking about submissions that looks like starts of real webrings,
I'm talking about robots that submit their crap to everything that looks
like a form.

> Prevent automatic (spam) submissions of sites
> Requires that newsite.pl is used to add new sites.
>
> Why should this be an option for the Ringmaster, surely no ringmaster
> would want spam submissions??

Because there may be one or two peculiar ringmasters who think it's more
important to use their own forms. :)

Was I so unclear? Do you have an alternative wording to suggest?

-------------------------------------------------------
[Pete]
How about when a ring or a site is submitted (whether from the system or
from a form off the system) instead of the ring or site being submitted,
you are taken to a system page where the info just entered is displayed
with a 'Confirm' button underneath. You click 'Confirm' and the info is
then submitted.

Would this allow your cookie to work no matter where the info was
entered from?

Also wouldn't this be a additional block to Spam?

-------------------------------------------------------
[Gunnar]
Pete wrote:
> How about when a ring or a site is submitted (whether from the system or
> from a form off the system) instead of the ring or site being submitted,
> you are taken to a system page where the info just entered is displayed
> with a 'Confirm' button underneath. You click 'Confirm' and the info is
> then submitted.
>
> Would this allow your cookie to work no matter where the info was
> entered from?

Hmm.. Probably. But it would mean an extra step...

> Also wouldn't this be a additional block to Spam?

Guess it would. But if the current feature is 100% effective, what value
would that additional block have?

With such a confirmation page, you'd still make your final submission
from a system page. The only difference with using an off system form,
compared to using newsite.pl, would be that the initial typing would be
done off system. (And if one or more fields fail validation, newsite.pl
comes up anyway.)

Considering that tiny difference, is the off system form really worth
fighting for? ;-) Isn't it more important that people concentrate on
other aspects of the ring homepage, customize their navpanels and ring
settings, and add a ring logo? Note, also, that forms for logging in to
siteadmin are not affected by this, but can be used as usual.

I must say that I'm reluctant to make the submission scheme more clumsy
in order to facilitate the use of off system forms for adding new sites.

You can look at this from various angels. Assuming that automatic site
submissions is not a problem, people can opt to keep the new feature
disabled, and go on as usual. If, OTOH, it actually is (or becomes) an
annoyance, people now have a choice: Stop the spam or keep their off
system forms.

Finally, don't forget that those ringmasters, who don't want to leave
their sites, always have the option to install Ringlink themselves.

-------------------------------------------------------
[Pete]
There is the tiny fact that the majority of Ringlink ringmasters use the
off system form. ;-)

How about we move this debate to the open list, you present the various
suggested features/options, and we see if we get any feedback? You could
also ask if anyone would like to see any other new features appear in
the forthcoming Ringlink 3.3?

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